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#1 2009-03-19 21:36:15

djjonnyjams
Zak
From: Youngstown, Ohio - USA
Registered: 2009-03-13
Posts: 120
Website

Why are we still drilling holes?

If the new mssiah cartridge allows us to control the filter/cuttoff/res/env/etc... with midi, why are we still doing the pot mod? My guess is some of you who use it for live performance could benefit from having the knob right there, but I plan to simply feed mssiah notes and control from ableton live, Any knob tweaking I do can be done in realtime, but can also be automated, and from a midi controller that sends perfect digital control values (rather than some analogue potentiometers that no one can seem to agree on the correct value for resistance) and this spares me from drilling four holes in my c64c. I have decided to control everything via midi, and I may even buy a second mssiah cartridge and run an entirely seperate c64 for additional sid channels, (of course everything gets sampled back into ableton when done for processing before the final bounce-down to a stereo master) so one can create scores with unlimited amounts of sid madness from a single sid, (three channels at a time) furthermore, I would like the end result of each sid voice on it's own channel in ableton, so I will only be able to resample one voice at a time anyways, so why would I need dual sids? I would never take my commodore out of the house and onstage, of someone wants to see me jamming on it, that's why I often videotape my studio sessions. I have lots of bent gear, drum machines, toys, etc. but I don't try to bring them on stage with me, I always resample the madness onto my laptop and build an ableton set that I can tweak on the fly with a midi controller.

Finally, why wouldn't I just use quadrasid? Well I do, and have been for the past year and a half, but now that mssiah recieves midi, I can "keep it real" in my own way. I was going to drill holes, but I'm gonna wait and see how mssiah works out with midi control alone. My feedback mod is not installed inside the c64c, rather, I cut a midi cable and used the end for the 9-pin video output, and created a cable that has audio in/audio out/s-video. I hook the commodore's "audio in" to the effects send on my mixer, and voila! Feedback mod! plus you can throw additional madness into the signal from other sources before it gets fed back into the commodore64. I have some bent 8-bit drum machines that I'd like to filter with my commodore in this manner. I'm in favor of non-destructive mods. I don't want to solder anything, I know it will reduce the life of this machine (it's inevitable, no matter how good you are, handling the board, and modifying the board make it more prone to failure, this is simply a fact)

....Just whats been running through my head as I wait for mssiah to come in the mail.

Peace

   ~J


Am I the only guy who makes hip-hop with SID Chips?

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#2 2009-03-19 23:34:54

firestARTer
Administrator
From: Germany
Registered: 2006-06-27
Posts: 579
Website

Re: Why are we still drilling holes?

Short answer : Because it's more cool!  wink

...and cause ableton live costs a few hundred bucks.....


firestARTer - Gameboy - C64 - Atari Music
Hardware developing for your favourite homecomputer musicsoftwares
http://www.sidsyn.com
http://www.myspace.com/firestartermusic

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#3 2009-03-20 01:07:36

Cybertronic
Bub
Registered: 2008-07-28
Posts: 154

Re: Why are we still drilling holes?

firestARTer wrote:

Short answer : Because it's more cool!  wink

...and cause ableton live costs a few hundred bucks.....

.... if you buy it...... *whistles innocently*


Also same reason People Still buy Moogs with Knobs on em.

Last edited by Cybertronic (2009-03-20 01:08:38)

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#4 2009-03-20 06:46:38

The_Captain
GI-Joe
From: SoCal USA
Registered: 2008-12-17
Posts: 12
Website

Re: Why are we still drilling holes?

Jeez, I didn't even think about that.
I was just getting ready to chop up my 64 to put pots in it and I have Digital Performer on my Mac and never gave it a thought.
Thx!

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#5 2009-03-20 07:08:18

lynxxx
Nebulus
From: the free west
Registered: 2009-03-09
Posts: 61
Website

Re: Why are we still drilling holes?

I completely agree. except on the sid2sid part. i want two c64s with dual sids so i can have 12  voices simultaneously on a single mixer channel for ultimate detuning madness :-). aside from that your setup sounds almost  identical to mine.


"I went to see the person writing our operating system. He had about 4-5 Sun computers and a big cage with a rabbit in it. And he'd spent a lot of time talking to the rabbit."
- Adam Chowaniec / co-creator of the Amiga computer

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#6 2009-03-20 09:35:30

Awol
Nebulus
From: Miami/Brooklyn
Registered: 2008-11-24
Posts: 61
Website

Re: Why are we still drilling holes?

Cause some people like drilling holes and modding stuff? smile
Having built-in knobs is compact and just feels more direct. (I suppose. I haven't actually modded mine... yet.)
It's nice to have both options.

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#7 2009-03-20 11:27:17

ron
PROPHET64 GURU
From: berlin
Registered: 2006-07-08
Posts: 502
Website

Re: Why are we still drilling holes?

Just my 0.02$ about the reasons for drilling holes and installing pots (your mileage may vary?):

- it's cheaper than any average MIDI controller
- pots are realtime  - WYSIWYG (unlike midi controllers just sending CC values when you twist a knob)
- hard wired pots don't forget the preset and one doesn't have to dig out the CC list to recreate a setup.
- the compact & standalone factor
- compatible to other software (from Arkanoid to Cynthcart [too bad it it's not called Zynthcart wink]])
- some donĀ“t use MIDI that much in their setups (like me wink)
- certainly, it's way cooler than having a separate box with MIDI knobs big_smile

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#8 2009-03-20 12:12:37

ron
PROPHET64 GURU
From: berlin
Registered: 2006-07-08
Posts: 502
Website

Re: Why are we still drilling holes?

Opps, forgot to mention:

- because Prophet64 users have been doing it for more than 5 years now - hell yeah, it was even called "potentiometer controlled SID software" back in the days wink

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#9 2009-03-20 15:27:16

djjonnyjams
Zak
From: Youngstown, Ohio - USA
Registered: 2009-03-13
Posts: 120
Website

Re: Why are we still drilling holes?

Unless you are using an evolution uc-17, because that you can mount in a seperate commodore enclosure and have it look legit next to c64


Am I the only guy who makes hip-hop with SID Chips?

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#10 2009-03-22 14:51:28

PIGSNOOT
Nibbler
From: Belgium
Registered: 2009-02-08
Posts: 44
Website

Re: Why are we still drilling holes?

Drilling Holes is fun! Bigtime!
It feels you are creating a sort of frankenstein thing with extra knobs and shit, and then you paint it custumize it wack it crack it etc...
I mean I can Buy C64's here for 5 or 10 euros why wouldn't you collect a bunch of them and give thm personality, like creating a little army of mutant children!
I agree on the Midi stuff too, but for me I love having the best of both : diy madness plus Full midi technologic access!
It also depends, if you are using cynthcart you're screwed Midi-wise and have to get the most of it doing modifications, check out the Cynthcart LFO in the Mods area! It feels great having that kind of hands on controlability....

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#11 2009-03-23 14:12:16

djjonnyjams
Zak
From: Youngstown, Ohio - USA
Registered: 2009-03-13
Posts: 120
Website

Re: Why are we still drilling holes?

hey, you guys the vermin twins are cool, I liked your music samples. I currently await my mssiah and sid2sid board which I ordered last friday. (How long do you think it will take to ship to USA?) Over the weekend I installed a 1/4" stereo jack  for audio in/out to sid 1. I also installed a 500k potentiometer for the feedback mod (I won't be able to control feedback with midi, duh) The pot only makes a noticeable difference in sound when I get to the last few degrees of rotation. I have read many others who had this trouble with joystick pots. Bigmech's solution (which we reference like the c64 mod bible) consists of 100k pots with a 4.7n capacitor for the joystick pots, but he says "I'm still experimenting" with the feedback pot. It's obvious that I need a pot with a lower value (perhaps 100k will do the trick!) has anyone else found the perfect pot for feedback?

One other thing, it creates a noticeable effect even when I don't have line-in enabled, but not an overdriven distorted sound (as with line-in) rather, more like a subtle ring modulation. Is this normal?


Am I the only guy who makes hip-hop with SID Chips?

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#12 2009-03-23 14:28:33

PIGSNOOT
Nibbler
From: Belgium
Registered: 2009-02-08
Posts: 44
Website

Re: Why are we still drilling holes?

Thanx !
I think the feedback mod really depends on the sid chip used, on a 6581 I don't hear much of a difference at all actually...
I did'nt try it yet on my 8580 board cuz I'm still finishing My Sid2Sid ...
But The samples on Bigmech's page really are proof of how much the 8580 gains when using the feedback mod...

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#13 2009-03-23 17:03:37

TheLustyGhost
Guest

Re: Why are we still drilling holes?

I'm going to do this, except with a sequencer on the atari ST, whihc bypasses the (theoretical) expense of Live AND the comparative instability of Windows/MacOS machines.  Plus it will look good, which never hurts.

 

#14 2009-03-23 17:07:02

TheLustyGhost
Guest

Re: Why are we still drilling holes?

If only patterns and patches could be saved and loaded via sysex.

 

#15 2009-03-23 17:25:54

lynxxx
Nebulus
From: the free west
Registered: 2009-03-09
Posts: 61
Website

Re: Why are we still drilling holes?

Yes. It is too bad the MSSIAH doesnt support sysex. I am working on a solution that will support loading and saving patches on a VST host, provided you tweak the MSSIAH using midi cc's from that host using the plugin. That won't work on an Atari ST ofcourse, but it should be a nice workaround/addition for people running MSSIAH from a VST enabled sequencer on a PC. I had to resort to a VST solution because the (my :-) ) logic required to correctly load and save patches using MIDI CC's was too complicated for a basic MIDI panel. Once the solution is ready, I dont think it should be too hard to build a convertor that will convert my preset files into something that can be imported into MSSIAH directly. I am after all, saving all settings for all CC parameters of MSSIAH. I figure an instrument preset file would have a similar structure.

Last edited by lynxxx (2009-03-23 17:26:22)


"I went to see the person writing our operating system. He had about 4-5 Sun computers and a big cage with a rabbit in it. And he'd spent a lot of time talking to the rabbit."
- Adam Chowaniec / co-creator of the Amiga computer

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#16 2009-03-23 20:26:11

djjonnyjams
Zak
From: Youngstown, Ohio - USA
Registered: 2009-03-13
Posts: 120
Website

Re: Why are we still drilling holes?

LYnxx!!!! That's brilliant!!!! Make your VST save snapshots of all contol cc's so we may load/save/acquire the same sounds on c64, each time we load our set in our host sequencer. For Lusty ninja, I think it's cool that you use the ST, but not for sequencing, rather, you should use it as another synth. Come on over to the darkside buddy, Even windows Vista is running Ableton live flawlessly on a properly configured machine these days. Peace to all who replied, can someone tell me if it's normal to hear a slight ring modulation when feedback mod is applied and ext. in is disabled?


Am I the only guy who makes hip-hop with SID Chips?

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#17 2009-03-24 02:40:26

TheLustyGhost
Guest

Re: Why are we still drilling holes?

Yeah, the VST wrappers are fantastic, I'm definitely going to download and try them all at some point.

What software would you recommend for using the ST as a synth?  I'd LOVE to use MaxYMiser but I don't have a color monitor.  I tried a couple of standalone programs that didn't seem that exciting to me, but I would love to get some YM stuff going alongside my "real" FM synth (a tx802) that I'm starting to use for FM drums (nice sounding kicks have been easy to program; snares are proving harder).  I'll have to have a laptop for MSSIAH patch storage either way.

 

#18 2009-03-24 02:46:16

Awol
Nebulus
From: Miami/Brooklyn
Registered: 2008-11-24
Posts: 61
Website

Re: Why are we still drilling holes?

You can build or buy a cable that goes from your Atari monitor port to the composite port on your TV. Then you could use MaxYMiser.

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#19 2009-03-24 14:41:22

djjonnyjams
Zak
From: Youngstown, Ohio - USA
Registered: 2009-03-13
Posts: 120
Website

Re: Why are we still drilling holes?

sorry lusty, I cannot reccomend a good program for synthesis as I've never used an atari st. (We were a commodore family) but your st is already equipped with midi, surely there must be some application that will allow you to play notes through it in realtime.  I was just thinking you'd have another 8-bit weapon at your disposal.


Am I the only guy who makes hip-hop with SID Chips?

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#20 2009-03-25 16:41:16

projectwoofer
Bloody beginner
From: Athens, Greece
Registered: 2009-03-25
Posts: 3
Website

Re: Why are we still drilling holes?

TheLustyGhost wrote:

Yeah, the VST wrappers are fantastic, I'm definitely going to download and try them all at some point.

What software would you recommend for using the ST as a synth?  I'd LOVE to use MaxYMiser but I don't have a color monitor.  I tried a couple of standalone programs that didn't seem that exciting to me, but I would love to get some YM stuff going alongside my "real" FM synth (a tx802) that I'm starting to use for FM drums (nice sounding kicks have been easy to program; snares are proving harder).  I'll have to have a laptop for MSSIAH patch storage either way.

Electronic Cow's Sound Chip Synth plus many more on this website!
http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/electronic … wnet.shtml


Sinclair ZX Spectrum+Currah μSpeech
Commodore 64C+MSSIAH
Atari 1040 STE, 4MB RAM, TOS 2.06
Desktop PC 1.4GHz, 768MB RAM, Ubuntu 8.10+Windows XP SP2
Laptop Sony Vaio 2.26GHz, 2GB RAM, Ubuntu Studio 8.10+Windows XP SP3

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#21 2009-06-15 10:54:45

ACrIkeD
Bomb Jack
From: Finland
Registered: 2009-06-05
Posts: 30
Website

Re: Why are we still drilling holes?

Word. While your playing a real live with plenty of machines you start to understand why some things are not virtual. Mouse does not do the job while you truly need the control.


D-E03 - ( Deep Electronic 03 ) Experimental Electronic Engineering. Digital audio sounds like a grand old woman falling down the stairs.

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#22 2009-07-28 23:40:10

D Vibe
The Last Ninja
From: Sweden
Registered: 2007-02-03
Posts: 254
Website

Re: Why are we still drilling holes?

I like my "small" (well it's quite big actually) potentiometer box.. Only got P64 though, so I've got no midi action available for my C64 anyway.

Anyway, I miss the option in MSSIAH to midi record the potentiometer movements (since there are no midi out...).

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#23 2009-11-10 20:43:40

tk421
Gianas Sister
From: Pittsburgh
Registered: 2006-08-31
Posts: 26
Website

Re: Why are we still drilling holes?

djjohnnyjams,

If I can ever find a complete working C64, your set up sounds similar to what I have in mind except I will be using FL Studio. Since you are controlling Mssiah with Ableton, do you need a monitor with your C64?

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