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#1 2007-03-21 14:51:45

Rutabaga
Guest

Keyboard Interfaces?

Trying to find the right SID for me.  I have an FM Expander, but is it useless for a mono synth? I love the analog patching and Cynthcart isn;t available, a mystery to me.

 

#2 2007-03-21 14:53:13

Rutabaga
Guest

Re: Keyboard Interfaces?

Bloody Beginners!

 

#3 2007-03-21 18:07:32

Slorrin
PROPHET64 GURU
Registered: 2006-07-09
Posts: 871

Re: Keyboard Interfaces?

If you just want a cool mono synth, i reccomend Midibox Sid, which is basically a really nice sounding Sid monosynth option...

if you want good polyphony and the ability to control each osc separately, then you want p64..

cynthcart will be availble again in a couple of weeks, the dude just ran out of proto boards

Or you can do like me, and own all 3 of these options!

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#4 2007-03-22 01:26:43

Rutabaga
Guest

Re: Keyboard Interfaces?

I was told Cynthcart isn't compatible with the expander.  Dunno.  P64 works I hope.  Got to buy the overlay too-Cynthcart has the portamento/ Congrats

 

#5 2007-03-22 06:20:33

Slorrin
PROPHET64 GURU
Registered: 2006-07-09
Posts: 871

Re: Keyboard Interfaces?

cynthcart is NOT compatible with FM expander, that's correct.  It's compatible with the musical keyboard overlay..

it just uses the regular c64 keyboard..

the FM expander is not compatible with p64 either.. the FM expander has an FM module inside it, and the keyboard that you attach to it controlls that FM module.. it does not control the SID chip.



The overlay is not that expensive, i have 3 of them all were about 20 USD..

however, i bought them before all this cynthcart busines!!

cynthcart will be on sale again soon, and it's really worth having as many different tools at your disposal as possible, don't you agree?

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#6 2007-03-22 19:14:11

Rutabaga
Guest

Re: Keyboard Interfaces?

Sure...I just don't know what to use this big sweet commodore piano for...dreams I guess.

 

#7 2007-03-23 10:17:56

AxiMaxi
PROPHET64 GURU
From: The Netherlands
Registered: 2006-07-09
Posts: 548
Website

Re: Keyboard Interfaces?

Rutabaga, I take it you have this one:
http://www.xs4all.nl/~dokmai/c64/SFX_everything.png

The keyboard indeed only controls the FM synthesizer inside the cartridge, by default.
And only with the software that comes with that cart.

I haven't tested it in combination with the P64, but as said before, the keys will never be compatible, even if the cart runs in the throughput port.
The Prophet64 software is not writte to work with those keys, and since it's cart bases software, you can't add it yourself.

On the other hand, if the Expander works with RAM based software (as it does), the software inside the C64 will be able to detect those keys.
And if it does, one can write his own software... wink

Ever programmed a C64?

Last edited by AxiMaxi (2007-03-23 10:19:21)


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#8 2007-03-23 20:21:44

Rutabaga
Guest

Re: Keyboard Interfaces?

Well, no.  But I'd love to try.  I've been thinking I was cutting a little short, but then agian I'm new to this facet of music.  I will stop for nothing though, any good references to point a patawan the way?

 

#9 2007-03-23 21:07:07

AxiMaxi
PROPHET64 GURU
From: The Netherlands
Registered: 2006-07-09
Posts: 548
Website

Re: Keyboard Interfaces?

Programming a C64 takes some real effort if you're new at it.
First of all, this is not a job done in regular BASIC, you need to program assembly for that.

This can be done in a variety of ways.
Mine has become the one of cross-development: program on the PC in your favourite editor (mine is EditPlus), attach your favourite xdev 65xx assembler (64TASS is mine, but you could also use CC65 or ACME), create the necessary files and transfer them to the real machine by means of floppy or RetroReplay cartridge & RR-net adapter.

If you're new to assembly coding, this information probably blew you from your chair.
You'll need A LOT more time to get to the point of actually programming something for the abovementioned hardware.
It took me several intense years in my teens to learn to code and only recently I got into the hardware side of it.
It's fun, but really... it's not very easy if you haven't done any real programming before.

If you can't find any info online about the things I just told you, I'd gladly hand you some links.
But not now... in a hurry wink

Last edited by AxiMaxi (2007-03-23 21:08:04)


If everything is under control, you're not going fast enough.

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#10 2007-03-23 22:10:36

herr_prof
Space Invader
From: Joisey City, Nou Joisey
Registered: 2006-07-11
Posts: 136
Website

Re: Keyboard Interfaces?

this requires a lot of work, but at least the programming is done for you:


http://www.ucapps.de/midibox_fm.html

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#11 2007-03-24 18:24:22

Rutabaga
Guest

Re: Keyboard Interfaces?

THis is probably a laughably obvious question... Is it possible to copy a cart or translate it into a floppy or set to be played with the Expander, or are the only avenues here coding myself or custom boxes?

 

#12 2007-03-24 20:00:48

Rutabaga
Guest

Re: Keyboard Interfaces?

Scratch that, these ARE my only options...rolling my sleeves up now..k.  I'm thinking software will be a lot cheaper than a rack MIDIBOX, but it seems like the work is well worth it (thanks herr_prof). I'd really appreciate those links, I've only ever done one class in high school on basic, but I'm confidant that I could get there.  Am I dreaming or could a OPL3 chip be used comparitively to SIDs?

 

#13 2007-03-24 21:56:47

jbuonacc
Centipede
From: Rochester, NY usa
Registered: 2007-02-07
Posts: 447

Re: Keyboard Interfaces?

doesn't MIDIbox SID give you the most control over all OSCs, parameters, etc? looked like the best option to me. that FM expander looks like a complete waste of time, you'd be better off building a midi interface from scratch. also, besides obviously supporting the developer, i can't see any reason to buy the actual Cynthcart - is there one? i transferred the file from the site over to a floppy and it works fine, can the cart do anything the free version can't?

and why would you want to use something 'comparitively' to the SID? not much else like it.

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#14 2007-03-25 09:07:05

Rutabaga
Guest

Re: Keyboard Interfaces?

I guess my concentration is on the Commodore itself.  It's definitely a great source of retro sound and synthesis.  the expander seems like a opportunity especially when the sound cards use the same generation of technology, it supports the natural SID and this FM. I think that both are very useful for music.  I'd support a developer over a copy any day for the sake of a genuine product.  I'm just trying to explore the idea of adaptation for this soundboard. I think it'll work eventually.

 

#15 2007-03-25 13:22:13

jbuonacc
Centipede
From: Rochester, NY usa
Registered: 2007-02-07
Posts: 447

Re: Keyboard Interfaces?

Rutabaga wrote:

...the expander seems like a opportunity especially when the sound cards use the same generation of technology, it supports the natural SID and this FM.

i think this is what i don't follow. sound cards? like Cynthcart or P64? with the FM expander i'm not sure though, i guess i'd have to try it. there's just too many ways to get basic FM synthesis, and it's not even generated by the C64. then again, it might be the same FM chip used in other systems at the time so it'd save you from hauling out one of those. also, i think the cart port on it is for a midi interface to be used along with it.

as nice as it sounds/plays, i think Cynthcart is a bit of a joke. i'd rather see a decent (if simple) interface than some goofy 'techno patterns'. isn't there stuff out there that's just as useful, that can be controlled via midi?

still can't believe midi isn't a top priority for C64 programmers/builders. there's plenty of new products, but nobody has designed/completed a new midi interface? whoever designed P64 did a beautiful job, i hope they don't stop there.

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#16 2007-03-25 15:06:30

herr_prof
Space Invader
From: Joisey City, Nou Joisey
Registered: 2006-07-11
Posts: 136
Website

Re: Keyboard Interfaces?

cynthcart is a mono synth that you play via the c64 keyboard.. have you tried using it? Its meant for live playing of the sid.

I dont get demand for midi control of fm synths, there are thousands of dirt cheap fm synths that will get you the sound you need with midi built in. My tx81z is so genesis/megadrive it hurts.

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#17 2007-03-26 14:10:32

AxiMaxi
PROPHET64 GURU
From: The Netherlands
Registered: 2006-07-09
Posts: 548
Website

Re: Keyboard Interfaces?

The Sound Expander for the Commodore 64 has a Yamaha OPL3 chip and runs from software loaded to RAM from floppy.
Check this thread for more pics and information.
For sound, listen to the Telstar demo (1.91 mb) that comes with the Sound Expander. Notice that it's not very different, if at all, from any FM synth.

I have never heard about or seen software that works with both SID and the Expander at the same time.
Technically I don't think there would be a problem, but programming (good) sound on the C64 is quite laborious, let alone if it has to take care of two sound engines.

jbuonacc wrote:

(...) nobody has designed/completed a new midi interface?

Ok, not completed, but FirestARTer _did_ design one and is currently quite far in completing it, if I understand correctly.

Last edited by AxiMaxi (2007-03-26 14:10:52)


If everything is under control, you're not going fast enough.

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#18 2007-03-26 20:57:53

Rutabaga
Guest

Re: Keyboard Interfaces?

Sounds Awesome! That tone is from the O>G synth program? Sounds beautiful to me but that's probably mostly your playing smile I have the cassette version, do you know (AXI) if there are fewer programs on there than the floppy's? I also noticed no shortage of music sofware available, maybe using these might provide models of coding....too bad it's gonna take me years to learn about it, I'm up for a really fun hobby now though, so I guess there is no downside.

 

#19 2007-03-27 08:54:56

AxiMaxi
PROPHET64 GURU
From: The Netherlands
Registered: 2006-07-09
Posts: 548
Website

Re: Keyboard Interfaces?

Rutabaga wrote:

That tone is from the O>G synth program? Sounds beautiful to me but that's probably mostly your playing smile

This is the demo that comes with the program.
So thanks for the credits, but I did not have any hand in the music whatsoever smile

Rutabaga wrote:

I have the cassette version, do you know (AXI) if there are fewer programs on there than the floppy's?

I haven't got a clue, as I only have the floppy.

Rutabaga wrote:

I also noticed no shortage of music sofware available, maybe using these might provide models of coding....too bad it's gonna take me years to learn about it, I'm up for a really fun hobby now though, so I guess there is no downside.

The thing is, that programs are written in machine code, mostly.
This is just a sequence of bytes in the memory, there is no 'listing' like in BASIC.
For that you need a program called 'monitor', best provided on a cartridge that does not affect the normal RAM (like Action Replay or Expert).

This monitor can also be used to code your own program, but still I believe you'd better go to crossdevelopment right away in this day and age.


If everything is under control, you're not going fast enough.

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#20 2007-03-27 09:09:23

Rutabaga
Guest

Re: Keyboard Interfaces?

Oh, well I was very impressed with the classical style, but apparently I was fooled by my own gullability, HA! smile. I was just asking if that was a stock tone that came on the program for your expander. It's nice anyways. Cross development through software?, or the MIDIbox, cause I'd rather train the commodore itself for a really cool 'cheap sounding synthesizer'. Yes, I am that poor and stupid;).

 

#21 2007-03-27 09:39:57

Rutabaga
Guest

Re: Keyboard Interfaces?

HA! sorry, crossdevelopment= sofware. The midibox is interfacing. The pint in front of me is distracting.

 

#22 2007-03-27 09:43:37

Rutabaga
Guest

Re: Keyboard Interfaces?

HA! sorry, crossdevelopment= sofware. The midibox is interfacing. The pint in front of me is distracting.

 

#23 2007-03-27 12:32:43

AxiMaxi
PROPHET64 GURU
From: The Netherlands
Registered: 2006-07-09
Posts: 548
Website

Re: Keyboard Interfaces?

I wasn't talking MIDIbox... don't know anything about that.
Programming the C64 is my thing wink

Cross development == using tools on a PC to code a program for C64.


If everything is under control, you're not going fast enough.

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#24 2007-03-27 22:39:04

Rutabaga
Guest

Re: Keyboard Interfaces?

Sweet simple authentic and effective, yup.  I only want my Commodore and Expander to love each other and get along.

 

#25 2007-04-08 23:40:29

kwerk1
Guest

Re: Keyboard Interfaces?

Hi To All The Group... Im Based In The UK....... And Have Been Writing electronic Music For about 30 years...

Just Wanted To ASK.... Does The P64 Work With The Keyboard Over Lay.......

Thanks For Taking The Time To Read My Post...And Look forward To Speck With Like Minded C64 Users...

Kwerk1

 

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