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#1 2008-12-03 15:29:04

Tristan
Pac-Man
From: Brum, UK
Registered: 2007-01-06
Posts: 247
Website

MSSIAH VST Interface

Has anybody made such a thing? I read that people were making dashboard presets and whatnot for various hosts, how did those projects pan out? Any info would be most welcome.

I am seriously considering making a prototype in SE or SM over the next week or so (assuming nobody has beaten me to it). This would be a great time to list the features that you'd like to see.


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#2 2008-12-03 16:07:37

Flemming
The Last Ninja
Registered: 2008-11-27
Posts: 291

Re: MSSIAH VST Interface

I had the same idea smile and i would love to assist you building one... actually my first idea was to build one myself for my website www.audiosonic.dk

I own a lot of 3rd party registered SE modules to use in such project, and i believe that a VST would be better than dashboards as they are host-dependant. I am thinking of a feature-list myself.. but to start with i can't decide if i want to build separate VSTs for all the MSSIAH apps, or to build one big milti-panel mofo to control everything..

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#3 2008-12-03 19:21:37

jbuonacc
Centipede
From: Rochester, NY usa
Registered: 2007-02-07
Posts: 447

Re: MSSIAH VST Interface

probably best to build separate VSTs as you can only use one app at a time. also, some people might never use certain ones.

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#4 2008-12-03 19:43:56

KONEY
PROPHET64 GURU
From: VENICE - ITALY
Registered: 2006-07-08
Posts: 1062
Website

Re: MSSIAH VST Interface

Hey guys this souds nice...so basically one could have a VST running on, say, Cubase and use it as a GUI for Mssiah?

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#5 2008-12-03 20:43:11

Flemming
The Last Ninja
Registered: 2008-11-27
Posts: 291

Re: MSSIAH VST Interface

KONEY wrote:

Hey guys this souds nice...so basically one could have a VST running on, say, Cubase and use it as a GUI for Mssiah?

Sure smile and save presets for it also in the FXB and FXP format... as far as i remember. And furthermore you can record the knobs, and watch them move during playback as a visual aid ... but my main C64 has no SID in it. I'm waiting for my SID2SID to arrive (another C64 has all the buttons ripped off to do the 'bleach mod' one of thes days) whenever one of them gets to produce sound i will hook it up and start creating knobs smile

I could really use the help of the OP or any other interested forum-members for discussing, testing and stuff..

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#6 2008-12-03 21:28:21

Peter
Bloody beginner
Registered: 2006-07-10
Posts: 7

Re: MSSIAH VST Interface

I greatly look forward to seeing this come together.

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#7 2008-12-03 22:03:43

Tristan
Pac-Man
From: Brum, UK
Registered: 2007-01-06
Posts: 247
Website

Re: MSSIAH VST Interface

I'd love to work with you, Flemming! I'm sure I remember Digidrum from back in the day... Your GUI's are infinitely superior to the minimalist crap I come up with. Is that DH text array on DigiDrum Pro, by the way? I own a few DH packs myself, though I've not (yet) purchased any CK stuff....

Anyway, I agree that multiple plug-ins would be better than a single CPU hog. I've started trying to decipher the MIDI controller lists (I am VERY excited about the wavetable controls and auto-arpeggio functions!) and I think I could knock something together using KDL MIDI2GUIfloat's or something. I expect MIDI munger would be a bit lighter on CPU, but I suck at using it. Do you?

My main concern is that the user should have to do as little as possible to make it work. There seems to be a fair amount of fiddling in the MSSIAH options already... If there are any possible ways to limit the amount of fiddling with some cunning automation, that would be amazing. I may be thinking too hard about this. wink


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#8 2008-12-03 23:06:43

InactiveX
The Last Ninja
From: England
Registered: 2008-08-14
Posts: 280

Re: MSSIAH VST Interface

Flemming wrote:

I could really use the help of the OP or any other interested forum-members for discussing, testing and stuff..

Cubase SE3 user here. I've just been told my MSSIAH is on its way.

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#9 2008-12-03 23:37:38

NAS
Bloody beginner
Registered: 2007-03-11
Posts: 9

Re: MSSIAH VST Interface

Isn't everything just MIDI CCs and no sysex ?
If that is the case then you can just use standard controls in either SE or SM
It's actually extremely easy to do in both packages

I'm guessing you are going to want to add LFOs and other modulators too though and that is where it gets fun

PS I was beta testing SE pre the save as VST feature and i am a mod at the SM forum so any help you need from me just ask wink

NAS


One of my SM plugs in progress

http://stashbox.org/304254/rtype.gif

Last edited by NAS (2008-12-03 23:41:48)

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#10 2008-12-03 23:41:55

Flemming
The Last Ninja
Registered: 2008-11-27
Posts: 291

Re: MSSIAH VST Interface

Tristan wrote:

I'd love to work with you, Flemming! I'm sure I remember Digidrum from back in the day... Your GUI's are infinitely superior to the minimalist crap I come up with. Is that DH text array on DigiDrum Pro, by the way? I own a few DH packs myself, though I've not (yet) purchased any CK stuff....

If you refer to the hints in the top right corner it's made with DH control overlay actually (http://www.dehaupt.com/SynthEdit/DH_Sub-ControlPak3.htm). it was before the DH arrays were available smile now all DH modules are free to use.. check his site out wink  I also have a lot of CK stuff.. very technical, mostly synthesis-based.. my best guess is that we use this one (http://www.dehaupt.com/SynthEdit/DH_CVtoMIDI_CC.htm) garnished with DH modules and eventually KDL (which i have experienced to bloat the automation-list with useless parameters.. but maybe they got better). The GUI was made in cooperation with a dear friend of mine who did the graphics and discussed the actual layout with me. I'm sure that he would do his best to make a nice GUI for our VSTs if we create something worthy to release.. *S*

Tristan wrote:

Anyway, I agree that multiple plug-ins would be better than a single CPU hog. I've started trying to decipher the MIDI controller lists (I am VERY excited about the wavetable controls and auto-arpeggio functions!) and I think I could knock something together using KDL MIDI2GUIfloat's or something. I expect MIDI munger would be a bit lighter on CPU, but I suck at using it. Do you?

MIDI munger is really nice to distort/re-direct midi messages and stuff, but i don't think we really have to get so low-level.. My initial guess is that we would easily do a comfortable frontend to control the basic CCs that MSSIAH requires.. even covering patterns and wavetables smile As far as i can see all of MSSIAH's parameters are controlled by CCs, pitchwheel or modwheel.. and again; if we decide to create a VST then many users can load it into their host of choice.. a dashboard-kinda solution can be sweet, but it only works on it's specific host. The MIDI CC lists are in the MSSIAH manuals wink all we have to do is create knobs, assign values and ranges, create descent GUI and release for the public to enjoy... hopefully smile

Tristan wrote:

My main concern is that the user should have to do as little as possible to make it work. There seems to be a fair amount of fiddling in the MSSIAH options already... If there are any possible ways to limit the amount of fiddling with some cunning automation, that would be amazing. I may be thinking too hard about this. wink

Thinking hard is never wrong smile we all do it from time to time.. don't be ashamed wink ... no, serously, you should consider that a less complicated GUI would mean less control over parameters.. After using it for a week dudes will seek to mod it *LOL* my suggestion is to create an expert user interface housing all the available MIDI parameters that MSSIAH offers... i'm not the one to promise a super VST for MSSIAH control, but i sure as hell would love to give it a competent shot at success, and if you'd like to contribute it can only get better smile If we can persuade my friend to do the graphics and some forum-members to do some beta-testing i'm sure we can produce a descent product for the forum to enjoy..

The big question is; where to start ???? bassline.. drummer.. one of the simpler apps would be nice to start out with to warm up and obatin a general outlook of the communication between host and client

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#11 2008-12-03 23:51:33

KONEY
PROPHET64 GURU
From: VENICE - ITALY
Registered: 2006-07-08
Posts: 1062
Website

Re: MSSIAH VST Interface

This is beyond my dreams. Please someone wakes me up....

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#12 2008-12-03 23:59:21

KONEY
PROPHET64 GURU
From: VENICE - ITALY
Registered: 2006-07-08
Posts: 1062
Website

Re: MSSIAH VST Interface

Flemming wrote:

The big question is; where to start ???? bassline.. drummer.. one of the simpler apps would be nice to start out with to warm up and obatin a general outlook of the communication between host and client

DRUMMER! DRUMMER! tongue

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#13 2008-12-04 00:02:30

Flemming
The Last Ninja
Registered: 2008-11-27
Posts: 291

Re: MSSIAH VST Interface

@NAS
Oh, another modular addict smile Well stay around, please.. your experience sure will end out benefitting a final product!!

LFOs would be easy to create.. also envelopes and arpeggiators smile and i would sure love those options, but initially i would be more than happy to end up with just a simple VST-interface to control the lot of MSSIAH CCs from your favorite host.. After verifying and testing the plugins i find it naturally to expand them with options beyond the SID scope, so to say wink

As these options would crave more CPU power from your PC maybe it would be smart to create several versions.. a basic and a + version maybe (the basic version holding all the MSSIAH parameters, and the + version offering additional controls at the cost of higher CPU load)

...but i'm just reflecting here.. flahing ideas and such..

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#14 2008-12-04 00:06:19

KONEY
PROPHET64 GURU
From: VENICE - ITALY
Registered: 2006-07-08
Posts: 1062
Website

Re: MSSIAH VST Interface

NAS wrote:

One of my SM plugs in progress
http://stashbox.org/304254/rtype.gif

This is very appealing! Please let us know when it's available!

However, for Mssiah, I'd advise a gui drawn over screenshots of the original apps, or a picture of a real monitor of a C64 running the apps could be also very nice!

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#15 2008-12-04 00:11:11

Flemming
The Last Ninja
Registered: 2008-11-27
Posts: 291

Re: MSSIAH VST Interface

KONEY wrote:

DRUMMER! DRUMMER! tongue

Sounds okay for me smile

@Tristan - Are you okay with Drummer being the first plugin to create???

@KONEY - Don't expect too much buddy *S* this will be better than nothing, but it will certainly not be the ultimate solution.... well, maybe... if we get lucky in some seriously cosmic kinda way wink Your idea of making the plugin adapt the original C64 screen layout really appeals to me. It is a nice factor that users only has to learn 1 user interface to interact smile

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#16 2008-12-04 08:35:11

EVK
GI-Joe
From: Sweden
Registered: 2008-11-20
Posts: 16

Re: MSSIAH VST Interface

Flemming wrote:

As these options would crave more CPU power from your PC maybe it would be smart to create several versions.. a basic and a + version maybe (the basic version holding all the MSSIAH parameters, and the + version offering additional controls at the cost of higher CPU load)

Is CPU usage on the PC really an issue? You're not doing anything but UI and sending midi-messages. Even adding a LFOs and things like that should be too much of a drain.

(And I'd obviously love to beta test anything you come up with.)

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#17 2008-12-04 09:56:06

KONEY
PROPHET64 GURU
From: VENICE - ITALY
Registered: 2006-07-08
Posts: 1062
Website

Re: MSSIAH VST Interface

Flemming wrote:

KONEY wrote:

DRUMMER! DRUMMER! tongue

@KONEY - Don't expect too much buddy *S* this will be better than nothing, but it will certainly not be the ultimate solution.... well, maybe... if we get lucky in some seriously cosmic kinda way wink Your idea of making the plugin adapt the original C64 screen layout really appeals to me. It is a nice factor that users only has to learn 1 user interface to interact smile

What I expect is an exciting project, and YOU expect me to help with testing and whatever I can do! tongue

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#18 2008-12-04 10:36:26

Flemming
The Last Ninja
Registered: 2008-11-27
Posts: 291

Re: MSSIAH VST Interface

EVK wrote:

Is CPU usage on the PC really an issue? You're not doing anything but UI and sending midi-messages. Even adding a LFOs and things like that should be too much of a drain.

(And I'd obviously love to beta test anything you come up with.)

You're right.. it's an old habit of mine that everything has to be so friggin' light on the CPU. It won't eat up a lot of processing power, though LFOs, envelopes and arps will take some more processing.... I'm really happy that you want to participate in the development smile The more people who wants to help, the better a final product we will end up with!

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#19 2008-12-04 10:50:04

Flemming
The Last Ninja
Registered: 2008-11-27
Posts: 291

Re: MSSIAH VST Interface

KONEY wrote:

What I expect is an exciting project, and YOU expect me to help with testing and whatever I can do! tongue

Exciting, i can promise you.. that is, exciting like in 'should i cut the red or the blue wire first' wink

To have you testing also would be very nice smile i'm getting a virgin C64c today (never has been opened) and a new diskdrive... after i test the drive, and play a little with the enormous amounts of C64-discs i managed to scavenge from all around, i will start a new VST project (just to test some concepts at first) and i looked at the CC lists.... Bassline has a CC list which is a lot shorter than Drummer's, so maybe i will start with Bassline instead hoping it will be easier to create and get finished!

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#20 2008-12-04 11:42:36

gmnstr
GI-Joe
Registered: 2008-11-27
Posts: 11

Re: MSSIAH VST Interface

Me and a friend are considering doing exactly this. A series of midi-plugin in VST form, one for each application. For both Windows and OSX.

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#21 2008-12-04 11:47:40

KONEY
PROPHET64 GURU
From: VENICE - ITALY
Registered: 2006-07-08
Posts: 1062
Website

Re: MSSIAH VST Interface

ahah cool! I can test it on cubase 3 and logic 5.

Another ultra-cool use could be that if one uses a, say, drummer patch while, say, bassline is loaded on the C64 he gets ultra weird results! and also doing the reverse or other combinations! smile

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#22 2008-12-04 12:53:27

Tristan
Pac-Man
From: Brum, UK
Registered: 2007-01-06
Posts: 247
Website

Re: MSSIAH VST Interface

Woo, I think this is called the snowball effect!

Don't quote me, but if it's mostly just throughputs and a GUI then assuming Current Voltage modules are kept to an absolute minimum then the CPU drain should be as close to negligible as SE gets... I'd want to hear a great argument for adding modulation and enveloping internally... To me, the point of this interface is to simplify the process of using MSSIAH within your VST host - which has presumably got a load of parameter modulation tools built in. This way, the user can use the same modulation source to control MSSIAH with other modules simultaneously. ...I suppose adding internal modulation would be cool to add a little wobble here and there...

As long as permission is granted from 8BV to reproduce their GUIs, tracing over the interfaces is a good idea - however I wouldn't want a significant portion of my screen taken up with this stuff, so maybe reducing the size a little would be of benefit. Some elements of the GUI are hidden in menus (e.g., ARC and configuration stuff), some may not even be accessible via MIDI.


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#23 2008-12-04 12:56:56

Tristan
Pac-Man
From: Brum, UK
Registered: 2007-01-06
Posts: 247
Website

Re: MSSIAH VST Interface

gmnstr - are you planning on making this in C++?


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#24 2008-12-04 14:50:38

KONEY
PROPHET64 GURU
From: VENICE - ITALY
Registered: 2006-07-08
Posts: 1062
Website

Re: MSSIAH VST Interface

Tristan wrote:

As long as permission is granted from 8BV to reproduce their GUIs.

...permission for taking a picture for a FREE plugin's GUI?

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#25 2008-12-04 14:53:53

InactiveX
The Last Ninja
From: England
Registered: 2008-08-14
Posts: 280

Re: MSSIAH VST Interface

Why not? It's only polite!

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